Freethinkeruk’s Weblog

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Justice? I Think So.

I had one of those e petitions today asking me to sign to prevent the killers of Jamie Bulger, Jon Venables and Robert Thompson being released with new identities and possibly eventually into a new life in Australia. Now I’m a great one for petitions but I thought about this one long and hard and in the end  I decided that I couldn’t sign it.

What they did was of course, almost unbelievable, all the more so for being just ten years of age at the time but what do we know about their family background and the environment in which they lived. They have spent many years locked up and undergoing intensive therapies, re-programming if you like.

If punishment is required then losing the rest of their childhood and teenage years may not be sufficient for some but is an enormous price to pay and how long is punishment to continue. For ever? Along with punishment should go rehabilitation and those who are in a better position to know than us are convinced that this has been achieved. For justice to be true to itself there is or should be the element of mercy. Now that the killers are young men, no amount of continued punishment will ever remove from their memories the horror of what they did; their self punishment will be life long. It’s time for them and us to move on.

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19 thoughts on “Justice? I Think So.

  1. Nessaydon on said:

    Alot of children have rough back grounds…do you see then hurting a baby? Not just hurting a baby but torturing that baby. Ten year old children Know better. They planned this and they are sick individuals. Then what does the Government do give then the best life ever. I just hope that it is replaying over and over in ther heads what they did to this child, and maybe they will put a gun to there own head and then no one will have to look over there should for these sick individuals. I will fight for this little mans justice till the day I die. As for the two little bastards that did this watch out your day is coming.

  2. I never suggested that ALL children from rough backgrounds hurt others. What I said was we don’t know their background or the environment in which they lived,or in other words what could have lead them to do this terrible act.

    Sadly the view expressed towards the end of your comment contains a similar mindset of anger and violence as had these two boys. Violence gives rise to more violence, we must break the cycle if we ever hope to live in a peaceful society.

  3. Nessaydon on said:

    You know what I had a rough back ground and I know others who have had EXTREMLY rough backgrounds, and not in all my life have I even heard or thought of doing something so terrible. So go ahead and compare me to these two peices of SHIT. What they did is wrong, my 5 year old son even knows better. So you know what I will never have sympathy for them and I hope some day they do get whats coming to them. When and where did James and his family get JUSTICE? When they served there 8 years or when the government decided to give them a free for all. Like I said before I hope everyday they think of his cries and every night they see his face, because until they get what they deserve there will be NO JUSTICE. Maybe I do have anger but when dealing with something so terrible maybe people should be sooo angry.

  4. Nessaydon on said:

    There is a difference in being ANGRY and being VIOLENT. If you knew me you would know I only fight for whats right.

  5. I’ll just point out that the Government did not release them, they are released by the parole board which is made up of experts who have the discretion whether to release or not.

    I’ll leave you with the last word though, as your mind is obviously closed on this matter.

  6. Nessaydon on said:

    OK so the parole board which is not at all related to the government. And it was not at all the government who gave new identities. Yes Iam very closed minded in a matter like this. For the fact that it is known that children who hurt animals will grow up to murder or hurt other individuals. So what happens when a child kills another child, and had it all planned out to begin with? I know lets let them loose in the world and protect them. GREAT idea. The only people suffering from this is James parents, I honestly don’t know how they rest knowing all this. Theres your last word…..

  7. Hi again. You said “the fact that it is known that children who hurt animals will grow up to murder or hurt other individuals.” Please back up that ‘fact’ with a link to evidence. As I am involved professionally in matters of the mind its not something I have heard of before.

    The two released young men can be nothing like the 10 year old kids that they were and yes they need protecting from people who mistake revenge for justice.

  8. Nessaydon on said:

    Hi! I guess I should have worded it as it is a concern that children who hurt animals grown up to hurt others or even murder. Here are a few sites to check out.
    http://www.st-johns.org/services/parenthelpline
    http://www.humansocietyyouth.org/resources/animal_cruelty.asp
    How can you even say that they are rehabilated? And don’t you think the general public has a right to know where they are so we can protect are selfs or be aware of them. I understand that some people would like to hurt them, but come on, they served 8 years, for a little boys life. Also Thompson had planned it, they had tried to steal a child before they got to James. How does a ten year old have that kinda mind set. In my eyes it takes a pretty sick individual and it would take alot more than 8 years to fix that mind set.

  9. Nessaydon on said:

    Please forgive me. Apparently these links don’t take you to the pages I had found. Use google search and search children who hurt animals and you will find alot of information. I will try to find the links.

  10. Thanks and I had a look and the results are not conclusive but a strong suggestion, so fair enough there may be a link. The study also stated that amongst ALL criminals there was a high incidence of childhood abuse and neglect, which would support my original argument about their family background and their environment.

    You asked me “How can you even say that they are rehabilated?” I never said that they were; I said that experts in this field said that they were. To keep them in prison for any longer would be to undo all the good work that has been achieved over the last eight years and what would be the point of that.

    We, as society, must allow for and recognise that contrition and change is possible and indeed desirable. Who can see into the future? It is possible that one or both of these two young men may contribute to the betterment of us all in some as yet unknown way. Maybe, maybe not, what we can be certain of is that leaving them in prison for no reason other than revenge, there is no chance of that happening and we are ourselves diminished.

  11. Nessaydon on said:

    I will agree we as a society need to accept that change is possible. Also people must also realise that there is some pretty smart individuals out there that could possibly fool everyone as well. I feel this may be a situation of your damned if you do and your damned if you don’t. I still think people should be aware of where they are so that they can be cautious. I also understand that could put them in harms way. But like the old saying goes what goes around comes around.
    I just wonder how two ten year olds could possible do something so terrible as to tourture a two year old child. I still think little James needs a little more justice than what there was.

  12. Hi,

    Would you be interested in joining my Facebook group on this issue? It’s called “The Jamie Bulger phenomenon” (the link is above), and it’s about the violent mob mentality and ignorance associated with this case.

  13. William nourse on said:

    I understand the forgiveness in your heart. However, this is just your opinion. From the responses given it seems to be out of the norm. My opinion is that these boys that did this horrendous act, has a debt to be repaid. There is no reason to allow them to be released until their debt has been repaid. They are lucky to still be alive and to have a life to live after their debt has been paid. That is something that Jamie and his family and friends will unfortunately not be able to look forward to. They must learn that their actions have a price and to let them off early would not be the best message to send to them.

  14. It is not in my remit to supply forgiveness but it is my opinion that the release of these young men is a right one for reasons already given.

    Their ‘debt’ can never be repaid but putting them into an adult prison would only serve as an apprentiship in crime and what would be the point in that.

    Please see my post of today’s date.

    This topic is now closed.

  15. Long Rant on said:

    You make a competent intelligent argument. Hopefully my comments will equal yours and I keep my personal emotions out of it. I have a few problems with the release of people like these. First, the system says they are no longer a threat. Had they been put before the same people the day BEFORE this murder I doubt they would have determined these two were an imminent threat and remanded them into an institution. They would have concluded they are 2 normal boys, perhaps troubled, but no immediate threat to society. So IMHO the yardstick used by the mental health community is limited at best and the ability to make such a determination suspect. I would use a person’s factual history as a much better guide than a subjective evaluation. Yes this implies a person can’t be cured, and yes I believe they can, but taking a chance is not worth the risk given the level to which this crime was committed in these circumstances. I wrestle with the fact they were just 10. My decision making capacity was very different just 5, 10 and 15 years later respectively, and I still did dumb things, (and maybe replying to this post is one) but even at 5 years old I knew right from wrong at this basic capacity.

    Second, I don’t know what their “punishment” was, and I’m sure it was less than pleasant, but no where near what (yes I’ll say it) I would like to have seen. From the bits I have read they received soft glove treatment (as I’m sure the government wanted to make them a model of rehabilitation). Imagine if they go out and do something like this again. There would be an uproar (as if that bothered the system any) but more likely it would be very carefully covered up and we’ll never hear about it (again IMHO).

    In terms of punishment, putting them in prison forever does nothing for James, BUT it would however provide a measure of comfort for his family and that is where my sympathy lies. I don’t care if it means 3 lives are destroyed, perhaps that is a just and fair price to be paid so that his parents sleep better at night.

    As for remorse, I think people who feel true remorse is generally only within the capacity of people who do not commit such acts. If I had done something like that I think I would have to, in the back of my own mind, justify, make excuses and marginalize what happened. It would be the only way I could cope with it and real remorse, the kind you and I believe in, would go out the window. To further the point, in the case of these 2, they were given significant money upon release. If they were truly remorseful you would think they would stand back and maybe anonymously give it to the Bulgers. Or at least donate it to a memorial. That is what people feeling true remorse do. To my best understanding they have not. The only time they seem really concerned, and I’m taking from tabloids here so forgive me, is when they are under threat. Who knows, but the idea of this haunting them all their lives is not human nature. People move on. Being concerned about their safety and fear of discovery is as far as it probably goes. Again this is IMHO.

    I am fully in agreement with you on the futility of the email petition, but this is actually how I became acutely aware of the case. So it did serve some purpose.

    I appreciate the forum to rant and have one additional comment. Maybe this is just my warped perspective or I have read too many positive thinking books, but this abduction was so horrific and publicized that I am sure many parents hold their children just a bit closer when they go out. And in the past 15 years I think just because of the mathematical odds that someone somewhere was NOT abducted and killed because of the vigilant watchful eye of a parent or whom ever, who would have been a bit more lax but wasn’t because they heard this story. We’ll never know who or where, even the parents and the intended victim won’t know, but it must have happened at some time, probably a number of times. I am a parent and always keep a very close eye on my children, but after reading this story I keep an eye on other kids as well. Just a track of who is with whom, are they wondering off, and does everything seem alright? I will not be “the 38” and would intervene, but to do so you really need to be aware and this terrible story made me that.

    Finally a quick story. A few years ago my son was at a park having a total meltdown and was screaming and kicking as I carried him to the car. I was confronted by a security guard in the parking lot who sympathized with me but still insisted I present ID. This became unnecessary as my son calmed a bit and started calling me daddy. The guard quickly apologized but I emphatically thanked him. If this were a tragedy in the making HE would have just saved my son. THIS is what I’m talking about.

  16. This topic was closed on 29th August (see post two up) but ‘Long Rant’ has taken a lot of trouble so I have allowed it.

    I appreciate the way you are thinking but your main argument fails to stand up to even rudimentary scrutiny. Any one of us has the potential to commit an evil or violent act. The Nazis for just one example had no problem involving hundreds of thousands to carry out their policies and let’s not forget that it was we the British who invented concentration camps.

    Your argument (simply put) is that because these two children commited a violent act then they should be imprisioned for life just in case they commit another crime. Therefore to prevent any of us commiting an evil act we should all be imprisioned for life. Who though would be the jailers?

    SEE https://freethinkeruk.wordpress.com/2008/08/29/posts-comments/

    THIS TOPIC IS DEFINITELY CLOSED NOW

  17. not british , jewish, german poor, rich young ,old , cute, ugly. but MEN above all on said:

    not british , jewish, german poor, rich young ,old healthy insane, good bad, cute, ugly , but manhood above all

  18. Jacqui Austin on said:

    I have just one or two comments that I would like to add.

    “Would you want to live next door to one of these boys/men?”

    I wager that any individual with an ounce of self preservation would hesitate before giving any honest answer to this question.

    Now ask the same question to a parent……

    I wonder, do our Australian counterparts know of the pending arrival? I wonder how they feel about taking care of our outcasts again; let’s hope this is the only part of history that repeats itself!!

  19. In my opinion it is not Jon Venables and Robert Thompson who were guilty of this crime, but the society which has failed them and ultimately Jamie Bulger.

    Why they were left to live in such horrendous conditions so as to actually contemplate committing this crime is beyond me. There were over 30 witnessed who saw them that day, why did they not inform someone of the two truants, and why was there no truant officer to take them back to school.

    It is easy to blame to ten year old boys instead of blaming yourselves. According to the reliable sources the boys are on lifelong parole, so there is no chance of them being in Australia, the authorities still know who they are.

    Also, important to note that anyone can take up an assumed identity the same as these boys, so it isn’t exactly a priviledge, anyone can do it.

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